Afterlife

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Afterlife

Postby van » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:16 pm

Kia ora

Following on from Denis's post: "The Human Spirit"

What if any basis, is there in the belief of/for an afterlife?

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Postby Skinjob » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:15 am

The Bible.
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Postby van » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:10 am

Kia ora Skinjob

The Bible.


A series of books (biblio) depending on faith, written by a group of nomadic herdsmen, many of whom given todays psycological assessments, would be on the "funny farm"
I draw your attn to the Book of Ecclesiastes
Its author deemed to be Solomon, reputed to be the wisest man ever lived
He had this to say:

(4)"For as respects whoever is joined to all the living there exists confidence, because a live dog is better of than a dead lion.(5) For the living are conscious that they will die: but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remberance of them has been forgotten.(6) Also their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion any more to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun........
(10)All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place the place to which you are going." Chapter 9

From the foregoing and your comment, someone has to be wrong
Question is, :"Solomon or Skinjob?"

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Postby AJRC_CS » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:06 am

Skinjob.
The ignorant close their mind and convince themselves that there's only one truth. The wise keep an open mind to the different possibilities leading to and stemming from the present. Look not with your eyes but with your mind.
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Postby AJRC_CS » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:16 am

I've actually read the bible from cover to cover. Twice! Both times i thought it was part history book part fantasy non-fiction novel. Not once did i read the bible and think, yes their must be an afterlife because it says so in a book. And as you have pointed out van, the people in the book seem to contradict any belief in an afterlife.

The afterlife is simply a belief, nothing more. No true facts exist, no ghosts or spirits. Until i see a ghost and it tells me all about life after death, i will continue to believe that when you die, that's it.
The ignorant close their mind and convince themselves that there's only one truth. The wise keep an open mind to the different possibilities leading to and stemming from the present. Look not with your eyes but with your mind.
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Postby van » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:01 pm

Kia ora AJ

Until i see a ghost and it tells me all about life after death, i will continue to believe that when you die, that's it.


But AJ you might be hallucinating!, or if your non-belief in after-life is strong, persuade yourself you are hallucinating :lol:

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Postby AJRC_CS » Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:10 am

After drinking lots of Jack Daniels i'm sure i could hallucinate enough to see ghosts. :D
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Postby Skinjob » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:16 am

Naive Realism
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Postby van » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:22 am

Kia ora Skinjob

Skinjob wrote:Naive Realism


Pray explain yourself
Your initial answer to my post was "The Bible"
Was that too "Naive realism"?
I refered to that which you appear to put a lot of faith in, quoting from it, yet all you can say is: "Naive realism" in reply to AJ's reference of his brand of "Holy Spirit"(I can relate to that in the context of single malt 12 yr old Scotch)!
At no stage have you made reference to the Bible to substantiate your viewpoint!
I look forward to your reply, perhaps I too shall be able reply; "Naive Realism"!

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Postby van » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:53 am

Kia ora AJ

Some 6/7 yrs ago my older brother died
He was a very active person, older then me by some 14 yrs, and someone I looked up to and admired
Sadly he was brought down via motor neurone disease, meaning he was unable to fend for himself and unable to communicate
My sister in-law, a wonderful caring person, would comfort him as he tried to communicate what was on his mind
Some months (weeks? I forget) after he died, she awoke one night with the feeling that someone was in her bedroom
Looking around, she said that my brother was at her bedside, and spoke to her in the same way that she spoke to him
Knowing her to be a rational person (non-religious :lol: ) I have no doubt that what she related was true in her mind
While personally welcoming such a "visitation", I am however sceptical, for I am well aware that the mind plays tricks
I have dreamed about my father and mother (both passed on), yet never had a "visitation"
If there is indeed an afterlife, wherein physical representation to the living is possible, I would greatly appreciate a single malt 100yr old Scotch presented to me as proof!
I know of at least one son-in-law who would not only oblige, but to perpuate the "Naive Realism", ensure that every time that was put on the table for me, would happily quaff it as proof that I had "visited" them that nite!! :lol:

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Postby AJRC_CS » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:27 am

Skinjob wrote:Naive Realism


More like Scientific Realism. Show us the proof, Skinjob! The proof of the pudding is in the eating. :lol:
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Postby AJRC_CS » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:40 am

Kia ora Bill.

Sorry to hear about your brother. While i also don't doubt that your sister-in-law had a visitation in her mind, the mind does indeed play many tricks on us when we're in an emotional state. Many people have talked of visitations straight after a loved one has died, but because of the emotional state they are in people don't really take them seriously. The mind can sometimes make you believe something that isn't there as a way of coping with the loss, it's as if their mind is saying "look they aren't really gone so snap out of it and lets get on with life."

100 year old Scotch is my kind of spirit. So if any ghosts are reading this, just a couple of bottles would do. Or maybe winning lottery numbers written into the condensation on the mirror while i'm taking a shower. :lol:
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Postby van » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:28 pm

Kia ora AJ

"look they aren't really gone so snap out of it and lets get on with life."


I whole heartedly agree with you, perhaps the sub-concious playing a part here
It brings closure

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Postby ohlia » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:31 am

van wrote:Kia ora AJ
Knowing her to be a rational person (non-religious :lol: ) I have no doubt that what she related was true in her mind. While personally welcoming such a "visitation", I am however sceptical, for I am well aware that the mind plays tricks
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Postby van » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:36 pm

Kia ora Lia

Some things are unbelievable while others are unexplainable.


True, but how to come to terms with it?
My Dad, recovering from a heart attack, heard soft music and saw the curtains around his bed dance to the tune thereof
Being a rational pragmatist, his conclusion was that the drugs given him were responsible for what he witnessed
Have a conversation with a colourblind person and realise that what they experience colourwise is totally different to what a "normal sighted" person experiences
They will still say that the sky is "blue", but that is conditioning
Insects often see a totally different scenario due to their eye/brain? structure
Should some mutation affect a human, and they see things different, mean that they are "unstable"?
If no medical reason can be found(unexplainable), invariably I dare say they will be regarded as such
Believability I think is more a personal choice , perhaps a "security blanket"?

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Postby ohlia » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:48 pm

... so Van do you think blind people see colours in their dreams, and if so how do you think they would describe them?

What's your opinion of the Tarot card? Would you say the people who are able to read or interpret these cards are making-up stuff?
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Postby van » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:03 am

ohlia wrote:... so Van do you think blind people see colours in their dreams, and if so how do you think they would describe them?

What's your opinion of the Tarot card? Would you say the people who are able to read or interpret these cards are making-up stuff?


Kia ora Lia

It is not what I think, but rather what the individual relates
Lets not get "blind" mixed up with "colour blindness"
Again there are those who have become blind after having been exposed to colours to consider
I have read that some blind people are able to distinguish colours via touch, ie, running their fingertips over a specific colour, gives a different sensation then another colour
Whether they can determine the shade of the colour without having been told what it is, I have no idea, but they can via the sense of touch determine that colours are different (Hope that makes sense)

With the Tarot cards, I have no experience, but am inclined that like in any form of divination/clairvoyancy etc, the state of mind of the recipient has alot to do with the outcome

Given the case of blind people, many develop their other senses to compensate and use them to build a picture of the world around them
In the case of psychics etc, there is a possibility that they are able to "read" a person via subtle clues which the recipient of the reading is unaware that they are signalling
Likewise when people "believe" they will often stretch their imagination in an endeavour to strengthen their belief

I believe that we are not the only "intelligent" (sic) life in the Universe, however that is a belief based on probability but I do not translate odd things that I have seen in the night sky as "proof"

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Postby AJRC_CS » Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:31 am

A person born blind, couldn't possibly see colours in their dreams, they would have no visual images on which to base anything. Reading a forum written by blind people they seem to be saying their dreams are very rich with the senses they experience, but they don't see colour instead they sense it.

I'm sure people who believe in Tarot cards believe they are seeing into the future, they believe they can predict someone's fate. To me personally i think it depends on how much faith you have in clairvoyance. If you have no faith then you will believe it's all made up, if you have faith you will believe that these people can predict the future by reading cards. The imagination is an amazing thing, it can make us believe and have faith in any number of things that rationally cannot be explained or proven.
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Postby ohlia » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:58 am

Thank you both Van and AJ for addressing my questions. I’ve always wondered that about blind people and have spoken to two but they cannot explain to me, it’s like a different language to them, in a way.

As for the Tarot card, that was exactly my thought on it.
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Postby Silke » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:14 pm

I have read that some blind people are able to distinguish colours via touch, ie, running their fingertips over a specific colour, gives a different sensation then another colour
Whether they can determine the shade of the colour without having been told what it is, I have no idea, but they can via the sense of touch determine that colours are different (Hope that makes sense)


makes perfect sense, as I can do it myself to some extend. What I am unsure of is weather it is coulour or the black-white scale that is beeing sensed? When I do it I "feel" a sort of the darkness and then I guess coulour based of that, but perhaps I can do that because of my experience with coulour... my personal theory about that is that it is linked to light reflection and then again heat (it is common knowldge that black absorbs heat as an example) but material also affects that which should throw this "sence" off tracks, but doesn't... so there has to be more to it than that.

I have seen on TV a blind girl getting a pair of pants from her mother and she said "but I don't want these pants today. where is my blue pants?" she was born blind...
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