patriotism in the us ,flag burning.

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Postby Skinjob » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:31 pm

It all depends on how you've been conditioned, St Vandal. Once you've had the benefit of a school system that indocrinates people according to the agendas of the bureaucrats and the NEA, you are bound to think and believe all sorts of stuff.

Of primary purpose is teaching people how to read, write, and speak effectively; and skip the politics and the social agendas. When a person manges to read, write, and speak effectively, he will be enabled to do "Critical Thinking". Critical Thinking trumps all ideologies.

I don't see that coming from todays schools. I see a cluster-suck of followers, all unaware that they are followers, and they were conditioned with forms of "Operant Conditioning".

The term for this conditioning, using a "Transactional Model" is "Parental Injuctions". Parental Injunctions do not originate from parents only; they come from all authorities both directly and subliminally. They are assertions about reality that we have not tested for ourselves.

Critical Thinking means that one brings as many ideas that were given him to the surface of his mind. He then examines them to see if they indeed fit what he thinks they do. Here is a silly example.

Some of us were told, especially us babies from "The Great Depression", that we should always eat everything on our plate and not waste anything. I went around for years feeling guilty if I threw any food away. WELL FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, we are digging our graves with our teeth, so to speak. Throw the damn food away, because we are becoming obese. That subliminal and not so subliminal Parental Injunction is bullshit! Take what you need, but don't heap it on and force feed yourself.


We have received so many of these "Parental Injunctions" that we are somewhat like robots when we grow up. They wind us up with someone elses programing, and turn us loose. Then we think it's our own thoughts. Of course, they want us to think that. We are all that way.
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Postby AJRC_CS » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:25 pm

I agree, StVandal. I'm patriotic but i would never fly a flag outside my house, i don't think anyone would in this country. The only time you see the St Gorges Cross outside peoples homes is when England are in the World Cup.

That's why i think a flag is just a piece of cloth with ink on it, it not something you die for. If you're in the military, it's for Queen and country, not any poxy flag. If someone wants to burn my flag, which Muslims do on a regular basis, then i'm all for allowing them their freedom of speech/expression. It's as you said earlier, the only thing they're really accomplishing is pissing people off that bother to pay attention to them, the only people who pay attention to them are the ones who use the excuse of burning the flag to take out their hatred on the Muslims. That's why their protests are peaceful in Britain, they know no one is really taking any notice of them, it's just a flag.
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Postby legend » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:45 pm

quite right aj.
the only people who truly died for the flag would be back over a century ago,battle of watrerloo and also some american civil war.
when thewy fought to stop their flag being captured.
that is the only way you die for the flag.
its a soldiers job,its his duty,its his whole purpose in life to follow his orders and defend his country in battles anywhere in the world
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Postby ohlia » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:05 pm

I believe a flag is a symbol that represents a country. Burning a countrys' flag is showing great disrespect for that country.
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Postby legend » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:16 pm

its only a piece of material.
a symbol.
if you look into the past most flags are a symbol of oppression .
union jack,from the british empire ,when britain was great,at pillaging countries and stealing their wealth.
the confederate flag,symbol of the people who believed that slavery was ok .
sounds simplistic.
but so is saying "you burnt that cloth ,you disrespected my country"
would you be so angry if they burnt a curtain or a tea towel?
whats the difference?
its all in your head about being an insult
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Postby Bedford » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:45 am

The problem is, there are five different flags that could be called the Confederate flag. :teach:
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Postby Silke » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:54 am

...the flag is a symbol made of cloth (and ink you say? never knew that... ink goes away during rain you know) and cloth-collors. It is stil a symbol. wether I'd be annoied by people burning towels depends what was on the towel and why would the burn it.

...if someone burned my Hapkido belt, I'd be pissed, but it is just cloth. nothing more than a belt and the symbol of my rank and skill. A flag is nothing more than a symbol of the country it represents.

In norway it is forbidden to burn the flag. you get a fine ticket for that. Not that many years ago one burned a norwegian flag on TV (protest against the politics or something) and he nearly got in jail.

Freedom of speach does not mean you have the right to insult anybody or anything you disagree with, and you stil have to respect others. It means you have the right to say "I disagree with you" and then you can say why if you like, all though "because you are an asshole" is not what we regard as totally leagal. Flagburning is insulting to a country not because of what it is made of, but because of what it represent. If you paint a flag on a wall and burn it it is just as bad as burning a cloth flag, because of what it represent. The burning in it self is not the insulting thing, but what it represent.

...all of this is a whole lot of symbolism you know.
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Postby Valleysailor » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:19 pm

Bedford wrote:Shortly after the 9/11 attacks, I was told that a local Wal-Mart had a new suply of flags, but returned them when it was found out they were made in Afghanistan.

Probably nothing to it, but it did make an interesting tale.


It's a damn shame they don't return the rest of the crappy shit in their stores made in third world countries after years of the "Made in America" propaganda they sold the American public on. Maybe (I said MAYBE) I would start shopping there again...
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Postby legend » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:15 pm

i do believe the supreme court ruled you can burn the flag as its your right.
freedom of speech and all that eh?
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Postby StVandal » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:50 pm

I think in some areas you have to get a burning permit or something if you're doing a demonstration. I heard about a group that was arrested in New Orleans for burning a flag and causing a fire hazzard.. haha..
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Postby kg5uc » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:49 pm

Here's food for thought...

Once an American Flag has become excessively worn or faded, what is the proper method of disposal?

I suppose that if a flag burning law or amendment was passed, we would have to resort to running them through a shredder, because technically you would be breaking that law or amendment.

You can't have it both ways. If it is the <b>act</b> that you want to make illegal, then we will have to scrap the age-old method of proper disposal of the flag, since it involves burning it, and find an alternative method. If it is the <b>intent</b> that you wish to make illegal, then you <i>are indeed</i> violating a persons freedom of speech and expression, especially <i>political</i> speech and expression; one of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill Of Rights. And you are opening up a can of worms either way...

If you criminalize the burning of the flag, we must also criminalize burning in effigy since it is also an insult to the country. No more of you conservatives out there burning Clinton in effigy, nor the liberals burning Bush in the same manner. No; no more burning in effigy.

No more criticism of the government and its decisions, either. The President is the elected representative of this country, and to disrespect him or his decisions is to disrespect the country. Now I know that you conservatives are rubbing your hands in glee about now, but just remember...when another president like Clinton is elected, the same rule applies! :biggrin:

Silke: <i>"In norway it is forbidden to burn the flag. you get a fine ticket for that. Not that many years ago one burned a norwegian flag on TV (protest against the politics or something) and he nearly got in jail.

Freedom of speach does not mean you have the right to insult anybody or anything you disagree with, and you stil have to respect others. It means you have the right to say "I disagree with you" and then you can say why if you like, all though "because you are an asshole" is not what we regard as totally leagal."</i>

I must assume that you live in Norway. In the U.S., actually, we <i>do</i> have the right to insult people we disagree with. Just look at what sometimes transpires on this site, as well as others. The only main restrictions on free speech and expression we have in the U.S. are those that incite to riot or panic with the result of injury to others, libel or slander, perjury under oath, and treasonous exchange of information with countries inimical to this country or its allies. With a few more minor exceptions, most everything else is open. Of course, the more intelligent of us <i>do</i> show some restraint...insults and Ad Hominem attacks sometimes provoke undesirable results (like a punch in the nose, or President Bush monitoring your phone calls and reading your mail).

In my opinion, the burning of the flag is a symbolic disagreement with the policies or actions of this country...it's government, the actions or attitudes of it's people or both...and as such is a political expression of free speech, protected under the First Amendment of the Constitution. As demonstrated by Henry David Thoreau in his book, "Civil Disobedience," sometimes words alone will not affect change in the government, nor draw the desired attention to one's cause or opinion, and then stronger measures are called for.

At this juncture, burning the flag is not illegal and is a method of drawing attention, whether the desired type or not. Criminalizing this action would turn it into an act of civil disobedience and draw even more attention. I don't think it would curtail the practice much...all it would do is call even <i>more</i> attention to the person and his cause...his being willing to go to jail for his beliefs. Likely, it would cause flag burning incidences to increase.

On the average, how many flags are burned in this country per year? In this past year, not many, that I have noticed, but then maybe I missed a few hundred or so...someone tell me if I've missed that many. This is virtually a non-issue, with very few cases from year to year, with no effect on life, liberty, property, or security of the nation. To codify this behavior would be yet another attack on the freedoms the people of this country have cherished (or <i>should</i> have cherished) from its inception.
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Postby Bedford » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:36 am

It depends on how it is done. Proper disposal involves making sure it never touches the ground and that it is done somberly but unceremoniously.

The flagburners we discuss are going out of their way to make an ass of themselves.
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Postby AJRC_CS » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:12 am

The flagburners we discuss are going out of their way to make an ass of themselves.


As are the people who want flag burning banned. You have to be pretty stupid to burn the flag knowing the amount of anger you will cause. But you also have to be really stupid to get angry at the sight of a burning piece of cloth! They burn a flag, just go buy another and fly it in their face, a flag costs £3.99 ($7.78). The protester wants to make people angry, and they know burning a flag will make certain people very angry. Asses annoying asses!
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Postby Silke » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:36 am

Silke: "In norway it is forbidden to burn the flag. you get a fine ticket for that. Not that many years ago one burned a norwegian flag on TV (protest against the politics or something) and he nearly got in jail.

Freedom of speach does not mean you have the right to insult anybody or anything you disagree with, and you stil have to respect others. It means you have the right to say "I disagree with you" and then you can say why if you like, all though "because you are an asshole" is not what we regard as totally leagal."

I must assume that you live in Norway. In the U.S., actually, we do have the right to insult people we disagree with.


we have no laws against calling eachother an idiot and simular things, that is not what I meant. It is about respect of others, and there are many norms that must be followed, some of them has become laws. It is a diffrence between insulting and defaming (which was the word I was looking for last) and the last one is overstepping ones bounds. Flagburning is deaming.

as for making it into civil disobedience, perhaps that will aid the flagburners cause, and make it into something you use in extreame cases. I am not opposed to flagburning as an form of expression, but it is an extreame expression and should not be an everyday occurance. Too much lies behind that act.
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Postby AJRC_CS » Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:53 am

I think you're right Silke. If you outlaw flag burning, the flag burners will burn even more flags, flag burning will become an occurrence at every protest.
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Postby kg5uc » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:51 am

AJRC: <i>"I think you're right Silke. If you outlaw flag burning, the flag burners will burn even more flags, flag burning will become an occurrence at every protest."</i>

Yep, I believe that's what I said:

kg: <i>"Likely, it would cause flag burning incidences to increase."</i>
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Postby AJRC_CS » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:31 am

Then i agree with both of you :D
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Postby Skinjob » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:53 am

I like the way Mohammed lovers melt-down at a few cartoons. It makes me long for Koran toilet paper. That would loosen up the clots in those old Mullahs, and get their blood flowing again; might even make them vapor-lock. :biggrin:

Those who love flag burning are missing out; they should see what happens when you burn a Koran. It's much more fun. The devout run out into the streets shaking their fists and shouting. What a display. It's better than those parading New Orleans or San Francisco perverts any time.

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Postby Silke » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:42 pm

It makes me long for Koran toilet paper.


...this reminds me of one in my family about four generations back (or five? i'm not sure). he used the bible as a toiletpaper. Christian through and through, no one was to say other wise. Why he did it? well, he had read his bible over and over again, and knew it by heart. It was time to put it to some use!
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Postby AJRC_CS » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:05 pm

:lmao1:
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