DNA taken from male babies at birth

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DNA taken from male babies at birth

Postby bea » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:32 am

I truly do believe that most men walking the earth are completely capable of commiting violence, rape and murder with little provocation.

Prison stats show that only a very small number of women commit crimes of this type and that usually when women are in jail for murder its because they've been hidiously abused by a male partner.

Men on the other hand seem to think nothing of going out, having a few beers then getting stuck into each other, often with totally tragic results.

With this in mind then do you think it would be a good idea to take the DNA of every male child born and compile it on a database so that when crimes are commited and DNA evidence is left, that man can be immediately identified.

Do you think that doing this would discourage men from thinking they can get away with raping women (she was wearing a short skirt, she asked for it), being violent pigs and generally causing disorder

Or not?
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Postby Yogi » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:07 am

Rape is an interesting crime in this country. It's not so much the violent act that gets the male in trouble as it is proving the woman really did not want it to happen. Some of the laws are incredibly biased. I like to cite the instance where a woman who is drugged too much to object is legally considered as consenting and thus no rape can be charged. DNA evidence in that kind of legal system is useless.

I've talked to a few rape victims personally. They know the attacker and there is no question about what happened. But the victim of rape seldom wants to pursue it. She does not want to relive the event for one and all to judge, and even if she does not mind that, there is typically fear of recrimination that prevents the female from pressing charges. Once again, DNA evidence here would not be useful.

All that being said, extracting DNA from only males would certainly be found to be discriminatory and not allowed around here, invasion of privacy issues aside. The only time I think it would be helpful is when it is needed to determine parentage.
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Postby emanresu » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:25 am

In cases where births did not result (which would allow for a specific match) I can see such a practice leading to a thriving business on the black market where one might be able to buy bottled mixtures of a few million different DNA's. It would be to easy to confuse the investigative process.
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Postby Bedford » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:31 am

With such a law, you are already assuming guilty until proven innocent. As we can see from the Duke Lacrosse fiasco, women also alledge rape, as it empowers them. Such a database would prove to be reprehensible.
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Postby meadow » Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:24 pm

i'm pretty much against DNA harvesting for potential future crime solving for anyone. male, female, whatever. it's too easy to give that control to our crap government and then watch them take all our civil liberties even more!! no thanks, let the crime happen and then go from there. once someone has been arrested i find it acceptable to then swab and collect DNA. but unless you've broken a law and been legally arrested? nope unless it's voluntarily.

yeah, us women. we are so empowered by accusing men of rape. yep, that's us! :roll:
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Postby spithray » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:41 pm

In theory I agree with the concept of taking DNA samples at birth, but under the current climate I wouldn't give my DNA without a court order. I've seen enough CSI to know that everyone in America is a criminal (surely this is true?). :biggrin:
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Postby AJRC_CS » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:28 pm

I think it would be wrong, you're judging all men before they've committed any crime. That is a gross generalisation, and incredibly sexist! I think if DNA samples were to be taken then they should be taken from both male and female, females are capable of appalling atrocities too. Take this recent story for example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edi ... 230072.stm

Yes, there are violent people out there. But we should not take such draconian measures. I'm all for taking DNA samples from all convicted criminals, but to take it from innocent people because of something you think they may be capable of it just plain wrong.
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Postby pilvikki » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:57 pm

i'd have no problem with DNA from all babies taken at birth, but whom could you trust the files with?

really.
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Postby StVandal » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:30 am

I guess the real question is; How much faith do we have in our respective governments?
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Postby Silke » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:33 am

to the "women comitts less such crimes" thing there is a saying that "you are not born a woman, you become one", which I think is true for both genders. I mean if I really wanted to raise my daughter as a son, I would manage and the daughter would act much more boy like. would the daughter then have a easier time comitting crimes? if your theory rings true then yes.

Anyways. Before extracting DNA all around, what can the holder of such DNA do with it?
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Postby Valleysailor » Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:30 pm

I think we are rapidly approaching a time in our history when DNA will extracted and stored for all births, male and female (if, in fact, it isn't already -- and how would we know if it was?)
I certainly don't trust my current government with anything more than my name and social security number. So what? They have access to any other information about me that they want including bank records, health history, employment information, etc.
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Postby pilvikki » Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:02 pm

and as all the naive people like me say: "but i have nothing to hide..."
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Postby meadow » Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:31 am

amen, VS! i try to live "off the grid" as much as i can but i know that regardless of my efforts...that damn gubmint is still all up in my Kool-Aid. damnit!
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Postby Silke » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:51 pm

they take blood-sampes already at birth (atleast here), testing alot of things. Theoreticly they alrady have my DNA....
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Postby solana » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:41 pm

I guess the real question is; How much faith do we have in our respective governments?





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Re: DNA taken from male babies at birth

Postby angel » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:32 am

it took me a while to find this. i don't know why i never clicked on it before... anyway, i do have some comments on your thoughts.
bea wrote:I truly do believe that most men walking the earth are completely capable of commiting violence, rape and murder with little provocation.

i half agree with you here. i think that, under the right circumstance most men will indeed kill if needed. when a situation becomes threatening enough almost anyone will do whatever it takes to get out of it. personally i do not consider this a crime, it is merely self defense.
i do not think that, as you state, most *men* are capable of "commiting violence, rape and murder", which in your book apparently all falls under the same category. a small group indeed is psychopath and will do anything without any feeling of remorse of guilt. but this goes just as well for females. there is no difference whatsoever in mental deviations between the genders, there are just as many female psychopaths as there are male ones. the difference is the conditioning they got as a child, ie the way they are raised, how they were thought to act in life, and the simple fact that they actually are women.
men usually are more impulsive than women, and thus act sooner. this does not only go for crimes, but for all aspects in life. buying a new item/house/car, in business, in making decisions, traffic, etc..
women need more time to reach a critical point needed for any decision. this bit extra sometimes prevent women from doing stupid things, but it also makes them miss out on opportunities, and definitely makes them worse drivers. it has both pros and cons.
bea wrote:Prison stats show that only a very small number of women commit crimes of this type and that usually when women are in jail for murder its because they've been hidiously abused by a male partner.

i'd like to see your prison stats.
there indeed are far less women in prisons. also, when specifically looking at the above mentioned crimes men indeed are represented in larger numbers. this is not just a mental thing, it merely has a physical cause. by nature men are stronger and larger than women. when a situation occurs the chance of a man winning over a woman is considerably larger than the other way around.
it has been proven that abuse within a male/female relationship is not just a man to woman thing. the other way around occurs just as often. women are just as guilty of abuse as men are. there are many men out there that are raped by a woman. there are many men that have been abused by a woman. they just are too ashamed and embarrassed to talk about it, let alone turn the female abuser in, because the current society still expects men to be "macho" and women to be "weak".
bea wrote:Men on the other hand seem to think nothing of going out, having a few beers then getting stuck into each other, often with totally tragic results.

i strongly object to your generalisations.
when i go out i never reach the point of intoxication called "drunk", and most of my male friends don't drink that much either. we go out to have a good time, have a laugh, enjoy ourselves, without anyone getting in trouble over it, be it in our group as well as people around us.
bea wrote:With this in mind then do you think it would be a good idea to take the DNA of every male child born and compile it on a database so that when crimes are commited and DNA evidence is left, that man can be immediately identified.

i think this would be a horrible idea, and, as bedford already mentioned, it would automatically assume men are guilty. forensic science is far from perfect, many mistakes are made on a daily basis with horrible results coming from those mistakes.
apart from that, i do not trust my or anyones government nearly enough to have them store information like that. they probably already have it for the larger part of the worlds population, but so far they fortunately have not been able to use it in the scale you are suggesting.
bea wrote:Do you think that doing this would discourage men from thinking they can get away with raping women (she was wearing a short skirt, she asked for it), being violent pigs and generally causing disorder

lets turn this around. imagine all men going out on saturday night walking around in miniature shorts, with all equipment underneath within easy reach. fashion is a sick thing, it just might happen in 2 years. i for one actually know several women that *will* abuse this, and reach out and grab. would that be okay? i certainly would not like it if just any woman would mess with test and tickle, just because i am wearing something that i feel comfy in.
some women *are* walking invitations. whenever i see some 25 year old girl walking in nothing more than a wide belt without any underwear under it, she just screams sex, and is fully aware of it. this is not a nudist camp, this is the real world. when conciously dressing down like that you can expect to be messed with. it is a chemical reaction built into the biological system of a man.
i am not stating that wearing a burkah is the end of all problems, but wearing clothes that actually cover sexual parts would be a start. you cannot willingly provoke the world and then expect nothing to happen.
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bea wrote:Or not?

no.
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Re: DNA taken from male babies at birth

Postby bea » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:29 am

angel wrote:i'd like to see your prison stats


here you go http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/s95women02.pdf

angel wrote:just because i am wearing something that i feel comfy in


So its ok for you to wear something comfy but if a woman wears a short skirt that she feels comfortable in then its her fault for provking a chemical reaction in a man which he has no control of.

angel wrote:some women *are* walking invitations. whenever i see some 25 year old girl walking in nothing more than a wide belt without any underwear under it, she just screams sex, and is fully aware of it. this is not a nudist camp, this is the real world. when conciously dressing down like that you can expect to be messed with. it is a chemical reaction built into the biological system of a man.
i am not stating that wearing a burkah is the end of all problems, but wearing clothes that actually cover sexual parts would be a start. you cannot willingly provoke the world and then expect nothing to happen.
play with fire: burning will happen.


I can't actually believe that you have stated the above.

And i think you'll find that the majority of rapes aren't commited against women who are dressed up but are usually either in their own home or whilst they are with people they trust.

Angel, i hate to say this but your thoughts on this subject is typical of men across the world which is why I make such sweeping generalisations in regards to the male race. If a female is wearing a (what you would deem) provocative outfit (she may deem it as nothing but a comfortable outfit) then please try to control yourself.
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Postby meadow » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:55 am

i kinda tend to agree with Angel here though. i've gone out to a friend's rock show at The Viper Room in LA in a cute, short skirt, no stockings and platform sandals. i know that i'll get more reaction and cat-calls wearing that than my usual rock show wear of jeans, t-shirt and boots. or even short skirt, fishnets and boots. but i wore it cause i wanted to look hot and sexy and i wanted to kinda have it out there.

and i knew that i would have to be more on my guard than normal. why? cause men see any part of a woman exposed and they get wood. hello, they are pigs! :wink: what else can you expect when you expose a part of your body like that? i knew what i was doing and i was okay with it.

luckily i'm bitchy enough that guys know to looksies no feelsies. i only had one fat, ugly dude try to grab my ass. a well times step on his foot with my heel curbed that. ahem.

if women want to be and dress outwardly sexy, you gotta be willing to take the chance. this means you gotta know how to defend yourself and keep your wits about you. it means you need to pay attention to seriously negative attention and do something about it if needed.
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Postby bea » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:09 pm

meadow wrote:i kinda tend to agree with Angel here though. i've gone out to a friend's rock show at The Viper Room in LA in a cute, short skirt, no stockings and platform sandals. i know that i'll get more reaction and cat-calls wearing that than my usual rock show wear of jeans, t-shirt and boots. or even short skirt, fishnets and boots. but i wore it cause i wanted to look hot and sexy and i wanted to kinda have it out there.

and i knew that i would have to be more on my guard than normal. why? cause men see any part of a woman exposed and they get wood. hello, they are pigs! :wink: what else can you expect when you expose a part of your body like that? i knew what i was doing and i was okay with it.

luckily i'm bitchy enough that guys know to looksies no feelsies. i only had one fat, ugly dude try to grab my ass. a well times step on his foot with my heel curbed that. ahem.

if women want to be and dress outwardly sexy, you gotta be willing to take the chance. this means you gotta know how to defend yourself and keep your wits about you. it means you need to pay attention to seriously negative attention and do something about it if needed.


But my point is, why should woman have to 'take the chance' of being raped or molestered by some out of control hormonal man just cos they've got their legs out? I see men in speedos on the beach with huge bulges in their pants but i don't run up and grab it. Why? Because i can control myself.
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Postby Silke » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:34 pm

Men get raped. Women get raped. Usually by someone they know. Someone who knows you have seen you in many diffrent outfits, I doupt the last one was the one who did the trick.

When "out" it is most common that women get raped, but not until they get home or close to.

In a perfect world you should be able to wear whatever you want. In a perfect world everyone knows a "no", and even now most do. If anyone rapes anyone, it is not solely because of the outfit. Some basic valiues and attitudes are present, and no respect is. Putting on more clothes doesn´t dispell the problem, I doupt it lessens it even. If you want less rape: imprint the rapers with some decency, selfcontrol and respect of fellow humans and a tiny word: "no".

Perhaps is it good that fashion makes women show skin. Maby it is cold of me, but pherhaps a wave of rapes would put the case up a few noches on the list of things to fix in this world. Mabey the punishment for rape should be cutting of everything for the guys, sewing up the women and tatto a nice, big "rapeist" in their forheads... might do the trick.

As for the DNA: everyone or no one. Take it from men and women alike. Fingerprints as well, at the age of 25 or something... Make all the walls made of reinforced glass, so can everyone see if something happens. Why not stick in something electric under our skins and give the judges the button to sett them off? On their sayso we can get a reminder to be good little dogs...
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