dress codes

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dress codes

Postby pilvikki » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:31 pm

i was rather stunned by angel's comments on sleezy dressing, that was so archaic.

one thing to remember is that when young girls dress provocatively, they're often not aware of the effect bobbing boobs and buttocks can have on someone as they're not fully aware yet. they are just following the [more and more tragic] trends in fashion and trying to goad their parents. btw. when i was 18, it was considered indecent to walk around london in pants, although this was customary every day wear where i came from.

as for getting covered up from head to toe... not so fast.

i was having another hefty argument with mohammed, this time over women's dress in various lands. i said it was ridiculous to expect women to wear black burkas in that climate, while men prance around in white tunics. he said it was for their own protection.

"excuse me? dying of heat stroke is some fine protection?"

"well, you know, women need protection from men..." he shrugs.

"ok, so what you're saying is that men go nuts over any bit of flesh seen on a woman? and that's why they're roasting in the sun?"

"no, no, i myself don't find anything sexy about a woman where there is nothing left to the imagination."

"a woman in a burka is asexual then?"

"no way! there is nothing as alluring as a set of dark, beautiful eyes!"

i just stood there and stared at him. it was probably the only time i had the last word, and hadn't even spoken them.


so what is it, guys? i'm starting to get the feeling that we can't win, no matter what.
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Postby ashes13 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:54 am

one thing to remember is that when young girls dress provocatively, they're often not aware of the effect bobbing boobs and buttocks can have on someone as they're not fully aware yet. they are just following the [more and more tragic] trends in fashion and trying to goad their parents


While this may be the case for some I do feel that even at a young age these girls know that their dress code gets attention. They may not realise the extent of the attention but it is known in any case.
When I was younger I knew when I wore certain tops I would get tons of attention, not always the nice kind. The added benefit of annoying the parentals certainly may outweigh the leers and comments while out.

In society today one will never get it 100% right! Different cultures will have views on what is appropriate and what’s not. There will always be people that push the extremes as well.

I do know than when a young woman is out and about in next to nothing but an extended belt with not much underneath and a top that could be classified as an indecent bikini, everyone notices, male and female! They may deny it but even I have turned my head for a double take on occasions before rolling my eyes. It does send out non-verbal messages whether the wearer means to or not.
This signal can be read as 'I'm here, look at me and what I have to offer you'.
That doesn't give men the right to touch but it certainly isn't a red light to not look and touch.
You see that all to often here in London. Young girls out in clubs, drinking, chatting up men and wearing next to nothing. Add alcohol into the equation and the lines blur.
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Postby Silke » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:47 am

This signal can be read as 'I'm here, look at me and what I have to offer you'.


... it can also be read as "I´ll do anything to piss my parents off" or "can someone please just see me for once!" or a ton of other unsecure, unknowing sentences. I´m not sure I would ever think "here is what I have to offer you".

Take a look in the shops these days... around here at least it is nearly imposible to find high-cut pants or low-cut shirts or tops.
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Postby ashes13 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:11 am

Silke wrote:... it can also be read as "I´ll do anything to piss my parents off" or "can someone please just see me for once!" or a ton of other unsecure, unknowing sentences. I´m not sure I would ever think "here is what I have to offer you".

Take a look in the shops these days... around here at least it is nearly imposible to find high-cut pants or low-cut shirts or tops.


You are correct in saying there are many ways the 'dress' can be read. That all depends on the context and the how a viewer reads it.

Every time I go shopping I find clothes that cover next to nothing. Both in the UK and abroad so I'd say its pretty easy for young people to find items of clothing that show off everything.
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Postby meadow » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:59 am

then that person should be getting some damn help not prancing about with no knickers and her tits falling out of her top.

it's not insecurity, it's wanting bad attention pure and simple. they are so ingrained a sense of entitlement now that they want all the focus on them all the time. sadly, there are stupid men out there willing to give it.

i certainly don't feel sorry for them. wear some damn underwear and keep your tits in at least a damn bra!
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Postby pilvikki » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:34 am

i used to work with a girl who wore very provocative clothing - and yet she was covered. she literally looked like a two bit hooker and doused herself with body spray strong enough to choke. she was in her late 30's.

i spent a while trying to formulate a kind but firm way to tell her that she looked plain nasty and when i finally approached the subject, she was shocked! "i think i look nice and i can barely pick up the smell of my perfume!"

i explained to her how the nose works and how i'd overheard comments [a blatant lie, the guys told me to "do" something about her!] about her way of dressing. she didn't get it.

yet she was no slut and hadn't had sex in years,

she lives alone with her son,

she is dumber than a concrete block in the bottom of a deep lake.


does this mean that she should be fair game?
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Postby Silke » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:23 pm

as far as I know there never is something that is "pure and simple" other than yes/no questions, and this isn´t one of them.

Yes, someone wants bad attention, but not all. Some just one attention, period. Some wants to be liked by others the same age as them, and so they dress accordingly to stupidity. some are just angry and wants to piss their parents off. and as pilvikki gave an example of; some are stupid pure and simple.

People are alot more insecure than you give them credit for, meadow.

Sometimes I wonder... is that insecurity also a reason for men (as we talk about women who dress terribly) to rape? Not sole reason, but co-reason. I wonder... do they feel better about themselves afterwords, when they have proven stronger, more dominant, more powerful?
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Postby meadow » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:52 pm

yes, i'm well aware most people are dumber than a box of rocks! i see it every single day and more than i care to know!

in my opinion if you don't know how to defend yourself and keep your wits about you when you are out, regardless of dress, then no one else can help you. you can't even help yourself and you expect someone else to help you? PLEASE! that ain't how life is, sorry.

men are visual. but i also know that rape isn't about sexuality it's about POWER. and when women tend to dress a little sexier...they tend to be willing to give up their power. they want attention so badly they are willing to do whatever it takes to get it.

i can't say i feel too sorry for chicks who get harassed by men when they look like a two-bit tart. if more women dressed appropriately and didn't stand for the bad behavior of men instead of giggling, smiling or acting coy...then maybe more women wouldn't be harassed.

i don't get harassed out on the street. why? because i wear CLOTHES! even when i go out and want to paint the town i make damn sure that i've got on knickers and a bra! and that i'm not showing them to anyone. but i also know that i'll take my shoe off and beat the shit out of any man that tries any shit! most chicks are too afraid of looking rude and hurting some stupid man's feelings that they won't take their own power back and kick some ass.

but i also keep my doors locked, i don't park in darkly lit streets and if i don't feel safe? i LEAVE and find somewhere i do. i use a lot of common sense. i also make sure that people i don't know don't know where i live!
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Postby pilvikki » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:58 pm

so what you're saying is that all stupid people should be locked up for their own, wear a burka and have escorts to take them out?

what about those who have no parents, no escorts, and worse - whose family members attack them.

is that fair?
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Postby meadow » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:33 pm

*sigh* just think how much nicer life would be without purposely stupid and obtuse people! seriously.

if people can't take of themselves then that is THEIR problem. it's not my responsibility to do it for them. i'm no one's caretaker, nanny or babysitter. i'm not their momma, daddy or family. family's another story but even then i tend to think everyone needs to accept personal responsibility for their own choices in life. and if they aren't in a position to do so? then yes, maybe wearing a burqa instead of a wide belt, no panties and a tube top might be beneficial to their lives.

you are purposely obscuring the issue by talking about other things that have nothing to do with a women's dressing habits. being molested by a family member has nothing [usually] to do with clothing but about power. as i stated before.

and remind me again why an able bodied young woman couldn't just take care of herself and learn to defend herself??? if you are honestly that stupid that you can't bother to realize that you need to defend yourself against crazy ass fucks? well.... i don't really feel sorry for someone like that. they kinda choose to do that to themselves.

i lived completely alone for over 5 years in large, urban cities. when i say alone, i mean no friends, family or 'escorts' to assist me should i be caught in a bad situation.

and guess what??? i learned to defend myself. i learned to not trust strange men i don't know, park in well-lit areas, not dress like a whore, not drink to the point of not only not knowing where i am but who i am and i also made sure to pay attention to what goes on around me.

i refuse to accept any excuses unless someone is actually mentally retarded. and you know what? even then they can be taught simple things to help defend themselves.

you make choice in life you gotta live with them. period. bad choices include hitting bars with no panties and drinking until you black out. i wish we could live in a world where i could parade my fat ass around naked but that hasn't been a part of Western "civilization" for many, many millenia.
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Postby pilvikki » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:40 am

ok, so who dictate the fashion industry?

and yes, no argument about women being like sheep to follow it, but that takes the kids down, too. most kids want to emulate grown ups.
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Postby Silke » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:41 pm

Meadow: I don´t think you don´t get harrased because you wear clothes. Body language and attitude would send most people off if you are half the person you are here.

Rape is about power, and to be honest I don´t think how you dress matter much. However you dress, I would never, EVER, blame the victom and say "s/he brought it upon her-/himself. Ever seen anyone dress like that and not get raped??" it is the kind of thinking that allowes rape to continiue.

no, I think rape is more about attitudes and how you carry yourself. Rapists choose easy victoms: people alone, hopefully with low selfesteam and not much confidence in anything. Do they dress like whores? good. Then the public has a button to hang it on so I am not blamed... I bet that is how they think uncounciouly, and it workes.
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Postby meadow » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:34 pm

Silke: you would be correct. my sense of self-preservation is high and i know how to defend myself. and i'm unafraid to do so unlike most women. most women are afraid to tell anyone no, much less some scummy dude in a bar.

it's not about saying they deserve it, they don't. my point was that when you dress provocatively you are tending to invite a salacious element in when you don't have to. you can be totally sexy and not have your fanny out and about or your boobs falling out of your top. that was my point. the point is that we need to help encourage women to realize that how they choose to portray themselves out in the world is a powerful thing. and they don't have to give that power up to some stupid horny dude with no common sense.

i'm well aware of what rape is about. as i stated previously, it's all about power. you are missing my point, which is fine. nowhere did i blame any victim of rape. EVER. i'm merely pointing out that conveying an attitude of prostitution by dressing like one isn't helping our cause here! if we want stupid men to quit treating us like sex objects...well guess what?

we have to stop encouraging it and acting like sex objects.

i know it's a novel concept and one full of common sense. hence, it's inherent failure. but a girl can dream. leave the naked naughty bits flaunting for the porn movies and magazines. no one needs to see that shit outside of their own homes!
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Postby pilvikki » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:35 pm

now i see where you're coming from, meadow. [ok, so i'm slow]

however, there is a built-in problem with our species, which is basically wired for attracting the opposite sex. people dress, act as if they're looking for a mate even when this is not the case. just look at old people who are botoxed to death, dress like teens and more tragic still, think like kids.

furthermore, a deranged mind will take anything as an invitation.
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Postby meadow » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:44 pm

which is why it's more important than ever that women learn to defend themselves. and most important...USE it!

any man who is raised to think of women as purely sexual objects...again it comes down to any jerk being allowed to be a parent. it's all about bad parenting, lack of real sexual health education and basic self-defense skills.

i have absolutely no qualms about belting some dude right in the damn face. or kicking him straight off hard in the balls. it only takes once! i just need long enough to book my ass out of that situation! but most women are raised to be "nice" and "good" and to not stand up for themselves. that's how a lot of women are assualted in their homes.

i was attacked in my very own bedroom. i was 17 and a month from graduating high school. some man broke in and then put his disgusting hands on my mouth.

and you know what i did???

i fucking screamed the house down! i screamed as loud as i humanly could [neighbors stated they heard me two houses away. i don't doubt it.] right in his ear! and you know what? that jackass took off running out of the house!!!!!

guess where i learned that little skill?

high school crappy self-defense mandated class!!!! plus, i grew up in a kinda shady part of the 'hood so i knew to keep my wits about me even when sleeping. now i know i can confidently go into anywhere...bad parts of town don't scare or intimidate me.

the man was caught. when they pulled his record...it was nothing but robbery, assault with a deadly weapon and RAPE. but he didn't even get close with me because even at 17 i had the presence of mind to, even in my horrible fear, scream the shit out of my lungs and at least give myself a chance.

he died in prison. where the fuck belonged! he should have been killed in my opinion because while i was his last attack victim i wasn't the first! he was 52 when they sentenced him. his rap sheet was from his juvenile days...at 13.
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Postby pilvikki » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:58 pm

ok, so this is off topic, but good for you! without you, he would have just taken his career further.
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Postby meadow » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:07 am

it's off topic to a point but i was using that example to make my point? uh...yeah! if more women were likely to just kick a dude in the balls when it counts...i think the incidences of "random" violent rape would decrease. probably dramatically!
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Postby Silke » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:27 am

I might be naive, but I don´t think <u>one</u> man can rape me. I can´t possibly spread my legs, hold them and my arms, keep me from screaming and biting and get his pants down at the same time. He could ofcourse drug me until I don´t know what hit me... but I´m not stupid enugh to go out in the city alone or drink my drinks if I haven´t watched it all the time, knowing no one put anything in it. Then again I know my body posture and attitude send most people reeling anyhow.

... I might be missinformed, but most rapes where the rapist and the victom doesn´t know eachother the victom is usually druged? knowing selfdefence doesn´t allways help, though knowing it makes you give off the "back-off" vibe.

by the way meadow, I never said I thought you gave the victom the blame. The arguments however (meant so or not (I think not)) gives the victom part blame, and that is one of the reasons I hate this kind of arguments and descussions. They mostly lead to how the victom dress and behaves, as if it matters at all! The things we write or say doesn´t allways get across the way we mean them to.

I bet statistics state that clothes doesn´t really matter at all.
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Postby meadow » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:14 pm

seriously, you'd be surprised at how adept a man is at knocking a women out! without much effort on his part and many times it happens so quickly a woman has no idea what's going to happen until it's almost too late.

and many men, especially in this country, choose to drug a woman they know and then commit rape. we even have a class of drugs called "date rape drugs" that men give women at parties and slip into the drinks of everyone!

it's much easier to be attacked than you think, Silke. you never, ever know what can happen in the next 15 minutes. someone could literally break your front door down and beat the living shit out of you. especially if they have some kind of weapon, makeshift or not.
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Postby Silke » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:30 pm

I know how adept anyone can be at knocking anyone out; it is not genderbased at all! A knowledgeble anyone can push a few easy-located pressurepoints on the body and it will go numb and beond the owners control. There was a reason why I put the emphrasis on ´one´. I have no problem picturing a man with a gun sucseed though, unless I got crazy which might well happen....
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