Lies Lies and more Lies

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Lies Lies and more Lies

Postby haysi » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:38 pm

When does a 'lie' become a truth? It seems that some people are under the illusion that if you tell a lie, continue to tell it, tell it to more than one person, that it someohow becomes a truth.

Surely, a lie is a lie is a lie. No matter what spin you put on it, no matter if you tell it to your fanclub/cronies who would believe anything :roll:

Is it possible to turn a 'lie' into a 'truth' just because the person says that it is so, and that he convinces others that it is true?

Surely not?

What do you think?

Hays xx

(who is not lying regardless of what he says :biggrin: )
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Postby Yogi » Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:54 pm

I think the president of the United States perfected this technique. It's the basis of propaganda. My thinking is that a lie becomes truth as soon as any one individual accepts it as presented. Each individual has their own version of truth after all. The propaganda becomes dangerous only after a significant number of people believe it. The group think then feeds on itself and can grow out of control.
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Postby bermbits » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:10 pm

It's called the Big Lie technique: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie
Tell a lie big enough and often enough, and (some) people believe it.

There have been several re: Iraq - "a short, short conflict" against an Iraqi force that (is) "much weaker" than it was in the 1991 Gulf War" (2003), "It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months" (2003), WMD, Mission Accomplished, Stay the Course, We've Turned a Corner, Insurgency is in its last throes, wait for the Sept. report, wait until November, etc.

They must think we're stupid (and in a few cases, they're right).
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Re: Lies Lies and more Lies

Postby ohlia » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:36 pm

haysi wrote:Is it possible to turn a 'lie' into a 'truth' just because the person says that it is so, and that he convinces others that it is true?

No. Never. A lie is a lie. Whether big or small it is still a lie and could NEVER be reversed.
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Postby bermbits » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:40 pm

A bit more thought has led me to ask what is truth? It's like the five blind men and the elephant. (In various versions of the tale, a group of blind men (or men in the dark) touch an elephant to learn what it is like. Each one touches a different part, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then compare notes on what they felt, and learn they are in complete disagreement. The story is used to indicate that reality may be viewed differently depending upon one's perspective, showing how absolute truths may be relative; the deceptive world of half-truths. from Wiki.) When they each reach their conclusion, are they telling a lie?
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Postby Bedford » Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:23 pm

There have been several lies that are told often enough to be considered true

For starters, the Democrats convinced many people that Newt (the greatest leader in the past 15 years) was saying that Medicare would "wither on the vine", when instead Newt meant a diffferent program

The Democrats convinced people that Maca was a vile insult

The Democrats convinced people Rush overexaggerated Michael the Liar Fox's shakes.

The New York Times lies every day about how things are going in Iraq.

Lies give too many people comfort.
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Postby haysi » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:37 am

Thank you for your comments, it is a very interesting debate. I do think that lies can be used as propaganda.
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Postby van » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:56 am

Kia ora Haysi

An important question, one that has dogged mankind probably since he was able to articulate his thoughts
Please bear with me during the following quotes

"The history of our race, and each individual's experience, are sown thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal."
Twain


Truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson ( 1803 - 1882 )


I believe it is better to tell the truth than to lie. I believe that it is better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe that it is better to know than to be ignorant.
Mencken


One evening, an old Cherokee Indian told his grandson about a "battle" that goes on inside people.

He said, "My son, the battle is between 2 "wolves" inside us all.

One is Evil. It is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."


This is but a sampling of the quotes that I have saved
Searching for them highlighted "be'lie'f/ve", and that I find significant
Lies are propagated by those who want to believe that which they are comfortable with
It has been mentioned "what is truth?" and while that is relevant, when it comes to "lies" perhaps the distinction ought to be made what is "honest" and what is "falsehood"
Honesty and falsehood are discernable when questioned, whereas "truth" is unshakeable in the mind of the believer

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Postby emanresu » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:15 am

It's been my lot in life to be a liar magnet which I suppose is one of the curses of being (or appearing to be) a good listener. From what I can see, a lie becomes truth to the teller, maybe not logically, but emotionally, due to the immediate benefits it imparts, such as a sense of elevated status, the attention he or she receives and whatever else causes the endorphins to flow. I liken it to an addictive drug; the user knows it's bad news in the long run but it feels so good to them in the moment.
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Postby haysi » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:37 am

Thank you Van, emanresu -I appreciate your comments. I enjoyed reading your quotes too.

I have been thinking alot recently about what makes a liar keep on lying. I can see know that to a certain extent its because they have gone too far into lying that they do not recognise the truth anymore. I think that the Cherokee Indian got it right - feed the right wolf and you will win! :biggrin:

I truly believe that a 'lie' should not become a 'truth' just because the liar will gain from propagating it.
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Postby van » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:42 pm

Kia ora Haysi

I truly believe that a 'lie' should not become a 'truth' just because the liar will gain from propagating it.


People don't always "gain" if the lie is propagated, unless perhaps it is peace of mind ie the opposite (truth?) maybe unpalatable to them

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Postby haysi » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:23 am

van wrote:Kia ora Haysi

I truly believe that a 'lie' should not become a 'truth' just because the liar will gain from propagating it.


People don't always "gain" if the lie is propagated, unless perhaps it is peace of mind ie the opposite (truth?) maybe unpalatable to them

Arohanui
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Bill


Yes, I think that you have hit the nail on the head Bill.

Hx
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