Jehovah's Wittness's

This is a repository for classic topics that may have gone past the pruning date, but are too valueable to delete. Suggestions for topic candidates to be moved here are welcome.

Postby pilvikki » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:54 pm

A theory is an assumption without positive proof


i don't have a problem with that. the bible is so full of oddities that it would be impossible to follow it to a letter, regardless of what type of life it would lead.
User avatar
pilvikki
Holier Than Thou
 
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:42 am

Postby gadfly » Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:34 pm

My uncle married a JW. One thing that I know about them is that they exert quite a strong influence on their members. My cousin decided to be Jewish like the rest of our family and the JWs threatened to snub my aunt if she associated with my cousin. In the end they relented.


I like talking to the ones that come around. At least they used to come around. I think the word has gone out that I am a lost cause. At one time I just gave them the brushoff saying that I was an atheist. It is a lot more fun saying that I am confused about religion because I am not able to decide which is the correct one and then ask why I should accept the New Testament as the word of God.

They invariably point to biblical prophecies, which allows me to explain how much easier it is to predict things after they happen. The JWs then always say that the predictions are bona fide because the Bible says they are. Then I do my patented shoulder shrug. Great fun!
gadfly
 

Postby Silke » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:22 am

Hi, gladfly :D

Have you ever tried to convince a JW what the heaven they seek is actually hell because you would have nothing to care about? Think about it, no death, no violence, no law-breaking, no illnes no shortcommings. Why care, if there are no variables? Everything might only happen one way.

And point out that the Bible was written by sinfull humanbeeings, totaly capeble of making mistakes. After all, only Jesus is without blame, is this not true?

Quote:
If christianety is a way of life, then it isn´t a religion. It is a theory.


True, however the power seekers have turned it into a religion
It is however not a theory
A theory is an assumption without positive proof
Christianity because of its insights in human nature, if adhered to, leads to a less violent more enjoyable life


A theroy doesn't need to be assumption without positive proof. As a matter of fact, most of the laws of nature are only theories, all though all of them have been proved somewhat. If you say they have not, then nothing is proved and we can start a descussin wether or not we are alive, since not even that is proved more than somewhat. Christianety is not the only thing leading to a less violent life, and it doesn't even do that. It leads to a life where you are lulled into beliving yourself safe, but the moment someone starts herecy according to this religion, blood flows one way or another.

I like buddhists more that way. They have their bloodshed, but far less than christianety, not that you have to try to manage it.

If you read about the biblical "God", there is no love nor trust, rather subjection to some harsh rules and a smiting of monumental proportions if you fail to adhere to them


You are absolutely right. I was merly quoting official standar, which seldon (no matter direction within the christian belif) follows the bible exactly. To lure people of their old religions, christians adopted their God to what soothed their needs, and therefore they say God is for love. After all, the greatest rules are you shall love God above all and your neigbour as yourself.

I must admitt. I have never read the bible, only parts of it. Everything I use as arguments are things I've learned though my upbringing. I was raised as a læstadiunist. That was a path from christianety founded by Lars Levi Læstadius, a priest who preached about the "living faith"
Superstition brings bad luck.
User avatar
Silke
Stone Cold Crazy
 
Posts: 2239
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:13 am
Location: X-Winterland

Postby pilvikki » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:12 pm

læstadius?

that's heavy duty, industrial strenght christianity, that.

yikes.
User avatar
pilvikki
Holier Than Thou
 
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:42 am

Postby van » Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:40 am

Silky

Have you ever tried to convince a JW what the heaven they seek is actually hell because you would have nothing to care about? Think about it, no death, no violence, no law-breaking, no illnes no shortcommings. Why care, if there are no variables? Everything might only happen one way.

And point out that the Bible was written by sinfull humanbeeings, totaly capeble of making mistakes. After all, only Jesus is without blame, is this not true?


They seek not heaven but an earthly existence on a paradise like earth, I know, I used to be one of them!
You think that is boring? no more so than those filled with their own mantra about going to heaven to be with their "lord"
At least the ability to watch a beautiful sunset, listen to beautiful music, a new life coming into existence, these are human qualities anyone can appreciate
Who but the writers/believers of the bible declare jesus was blameless?
Did he not lose his temper at the temple?


A theroy doesn't need to be assumption without positive proof. As a matter of fact, most of the laws of nature are only theories, all though all of them have been proved somewhat.


You are deluding yourself
A law is based on fact


If you say they have not, then nothing is proved and we can start a descussin wether or not we are alive, since not even that is proved more than somewhat.


If you want to enter the field of quantum physics and reality so be it
Is Schroedingers cat alive or dead?
However, it is still theoretical debate, like "if a tree falls in forrest and there is no-one to hear it, does it make a sound?"


I must admitt. I have never read the bible, only parts of it.


You haven't missed much!
The OT is little more than the writings of demented pisspots determined to wipe everything of the face of the earth that does not agree with them or if they seem to be enjoying themselves
The NT is not much better
Have you ever noticed that jesus himself has never written anything?
All that you are left with is the repeated history of what he is supposed to have said and done, all bundled up nicely by Paul refering back to the OT and its original message of sin and damnation to the unrepentant unbeliever
Your Lars Levi Læstadius appear to be of the same mold
But then again do we see much that is different in any religion?

Bill
van
Hero Of The Day
 
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:42 pm
Location: nz

Postby pilvikki » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:01 am

i myself subscribe to the theory that jesus one of several siblings and even had a twin brother [judas]. i also believe that he was married to maria magdalena who was not a prostitute and is one of the guys at last supper.

the dude on the cross was not a thief, but a relative. judas may have taken his place on the cross...

furthermore, there are lots of descendants of jesus running around.

what might you think of that?
User avatar
pilvikki
Holier Than Thou
 
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:42 am

Postby Yogi » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:52 pm

Well, that explains it. I walked into a bar the other night, and the keeper said, "Jesus Christ! Here he comes again."
Inside every older person is a younger person wondering what the hell happened.
User avatar
Yogi
Big Kahuna
 
Posts: 3351
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:29 pm
Location: near Chicago

Postby Silke » Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:36 pm

Lol yogi!!


Pilvikki: I too belive he had siblings, among them elderly ones.. so much for virgin Mary... I´m not so sure about the relative crusifiction though. Why would peole remember it to tell the tail to day? Jesus was a nobody when he lived (and then I talk about what people living in his time actually wrote, not what people have written after his death) and as many artist got famus first after his death.


Van:

No insult intended. I do not think much of heaven or hell either way. My philosophy is only this: without oposites, nothing is worth living. Without evil, no good and the other way around. Because of this, i don´t belive any "heaven-like" thing whithin any religion could be only good. What could you comare your sucsess with, that you wouldn´t forgett about as your life went on perfectly?

That I said about all laws beeing theory, that was in deed pure philosophy, more ironicaly meant than anything else. I only said it to point somehting out: if you want to prove anything, you can. All you have to do is pay the right bill, do the right research, find the right conections and there you have it.

Actually, as I see it, most "christians" follow in reality Paul. Paul was a man of his time, saying the right things to make followers. Jesus said a lot of incomprehenseble things to his fellows, Paul made those words his own and said them so the would fit his society. At least, that is what I think.

Lars Levi saved the people living up north. Not by converting them, but by giving them a reason not to drink themselves to death and get a grip. Which they did, and now we aren´t that bad off. However, he saw things a little black and white...
Superstition brings bad luck.
User avatar
Silke
Stone Cold Crazy
 
Posts: 2239
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:13 am
Location: X-Winterland

Postby van » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:58 pm

Silky

without oposites, nothing is worth living.


That has often been said yet while one can debate that till the cows come home, who has ever lived that way and is able to prove it?
Is a life with pain better than one without?
Mind you I would sooner a nice piece of skirt to flirt with, than some musclebound hunk!
Especially after having had a prostrate check!!

Actually, as I see it, most "christians" follow in reality Paul.


I agree
Paul was a convert from the old school and re-introduced the "old law" that jesus by his teachings and course of action did away with

However, he saw things a little black and white...


Is that not the same with all who hold a fundamentalist view?
Too much of anything is not good, "moderation in all things"

Bill
van
Hero Of The Day
 
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:42 pm
Location: nz

Postby Silke » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:29 am

Is that not the same with all who hold a fundamentalist view?


It problably is. that is what beeing fanatic is all about, is it not?

That has often been said yet while one can debate that till the cows come home, who has ever lived that way and is able to prove it?


True as well. My imagination is too small to picture such a world. However, I also know by experiance that life is never better to live than just after some burden have lifted from your shoulders. As time goes by, if you don't meet obsticles, I at least invent them to have something to pass time by. Life without them is boring, to me, because of the onesidedness of it all. I need oposties.

You ask if a life with pain is better than one without. Neither is good, because you need both. Without pain, how can you tell you are not suffering? Without greef, how do you know how to be happy? as far as I can see, without oposites in your life, you will only exist, nothing more, nothing less. Is a life with pain better than one without? yeah, because with the pain in mind, at least you know you're alive and not just... existing...
Superstition brings bad luck.
User avatar
Silke
Stone Cold Crazy
 
Posts: 2239
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:13 am
Location: X-Winterland

Postby pilvikki » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:19 am

Is a life with pain better than one without? Without pain, how can you tell you are not suffering? Without greef, how do you know how to be happy?


oh i so disagree!

i know when i'm happy and this has nada to do with pain. in fact, i could very well be in physical pain and still happy. not too pleased about it, but that's entirely different.

i've grieved, i've been in pain. those feelings have nothing to do with happiness, unless you've been conditioned to think them as linked to each other and one thinks that there always has to be one or the other to fill a void.
User avatar
pilvikki
Holier Than Thou
 
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:42 am

Postby Silke » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:37 am

Not exactly what I meant, but true non the less.

People are quite able to feel diffrent things at once. Here, I was thinking of the long run.

If you see one episode of one thing over and over agian, it gets boring. The same rituals gets boring. If you eat the same stuff every day, you get sick of it.

I belive it is the same with feelings. Without greving, as time passes by, you have nothing to care about that way. Without pain, as time passes by, you have nothing to worry about, that way.

Of course, you might still care for others. When I mean without greef or pain, I mean it when feeling it for others as well, so everyone you knew or cared about would be just fine. They wouldn't do anything stupid that might cause your alarm, no one would do anything stupid to them. They would be happy and thrive, having things to do and so furth.

You could be happy for them, but for that feeling to last... what do you need?


Everyone in this world survives and thrives on need. We need. Basicly, everyone is selfish, and that is what our actions are based on. Why help the old lady across the street? Because you need to see her safely across to lighten your own consience. Why when a kid clean the house? Because that makes your parrents happy, and that makes life easier for you. Why give gifts? there are too many reasons for that, but all of them selfish.

If no one needs anything from you, if your happines for them doesn't count because of the fact that they are too happy themselves to notice, why care?

If you have been compleatly happy for three months.. why care?
Superstition brings bad luck.
User avatar
Silke
Stone Cold Crazy
 
Posts: 2239
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:13 am
Location: X-Winterland

Postby pilvikki » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:33 am

no, it's not all purely selfish.... i can selfish with the best of them, but there are areas where that does not apply.

the old lady needs to get across the street, so one gives her hand. big deal! that is something i think needs doing and doing without any ulterior motives.

yrs ago, when people didn't bother locking their cars, i'd shut off their lights when i walked by so that they'd not find a flat battery when they return. same deal, i needed to be done.

i got into it with a daughter a while back. i was profusely thanked over and over for cleaning my ex husband's room after he'd had a triple bypass. i finally got annoyed, as wtf? i don't even like him, but it needed to be done simple as that.
User avatar
pilvikki
Holier Than Thou
 
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:42 am

Postby Silke » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:53 am

intresting indeed.
Superstition brings bad luck.
User avatar
Silke
Stone Cold Crazy
 
Posts: 2239
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:13 am
Location: X-Winterland

Postby van » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:31 am

Kia ora Silky

If you see one episode of one thing over and over agian, it gets boring. The same rituals gets boring. If you eat the same stuff every day, you get sick of it.


The two driving forces of nature are to stay alive and procreate
You don't eat you die, is that boring?
If you have sex on regular basis, is that boring?
Is the allure of a female/male boring?

Everyone in this world survives and thrives on need.


Not need, necessity!
You don't eat- you don't shit- you don't shit- you die!
You don't have sex- no offspring to provide in your old age, ie you die when you are incapable of providing for yourself

If you have been compleatly happy for three months.. why care?


Show me someone who has been completely happy for 3 months and I'll show you a flying pig or elephant

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill
van
Hero Of The Day
 
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:42 pm
Location: nz

Postby Silke » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:51 pm

Show me someone who has been completely happy for 3 months and I'll show you a flying pig or elephant


lol! The flying pig or elephant is easely produced because of lack of information in this sentence. You could put both in an airplaine, and they would be "flying"...

Back to topic however... No one has been happy for three months strait, which proves my point as much as destoys it.

Not need, necessity!


You got me... bad choice of words from my part. Everyones needs are runned by necessity, and infact the two are synonyms of eachother...

You don't eat you die, is that boring?


Yes. However, you have variables here... what do I eat to day? This isn't allways the same. However, I would love a world where I could eat because I felt like it, when I felt like it, eat what I felt like... and not be hampered by something so little as my body's need for certain vitamins and so furth.


If you have sex on regular basis, is that boring?


Yes, if the sex is the same time after time, it gets boring. If you however test limits, test posibilities and evolve it, then it is fun. Until you only do what you do and then done.

Variables is what I want, it is what is important to me. The same over and over doesn't give you a good life, a meaningfull life or a life at all. That is at least my opinion, all though I cannot claim that it is truth.
Superstition brings bad luck.
User avatar
Silke
Stone Cold Crazy
 
Posts: 2239
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:13 am
Location: X-Winterland

Postby van » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:32 pm

Silky

Variables is what I want, it is what is important to me. The same over and over doesn't give you a good life, a meaningfull life or a life at all. That is at least my opinion, all though I cannot claim that it is truth.


The young always seem to "want" and they stress the importance
Define a "good" life
Many have done the same over and over and have been content and accept their life as "good"
To a starving, undernourished individual a full belly, even if the same, day in day out is "good"
If that allows them to get on with their life then that life will be meaningful, at least to them
Those of us who have at our disposal the wherewithall to buy/pursue whatever we "want" often lead an empty, lost existence
Witness the rich and their divorce rates, their drug dependencies, call that meaningful?

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill
van
Hero Of The Day
 
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:42 pm
Location: nz

Postby Silke » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:17 am

If beeing rich means never beeing able to furfill your life, then in some aspects the poor are lucky...

A good life for me is doing what I want to do. Not in some wild way, but having time and opetuenty to make my own choices. I want to preform, I want to sew, I want lots of those things, and for me the good life is to know that I can.

The Good Life is never the same thing for two peple. Ever.


Witness the rich and their divorce rates, their drug dependencies, call that meaningful?


No, I do not. People would have less divorces if it wasn't so publickly aproved of. It is also easier to divoce today because none of the parts are economickly depended on the other (talking about the rich, not overall) and so a unhappy marrige is easier tossed aside.

By drugs, do you mean illeagal drugs or medecines? I don't like either much, but to be truthfull, ileagal drug use is a greater problem in poorer countries. That is because some of the drugs helps you not care if your belly is eamty, it dulls hunger and is "easy" to get. The dealers are looking for quick money in countries where jobs are scare. people gets adicted and so crime blosoms. Is that the good life?

Is there anything like the good life on earth?
Superstition brings bad luck.
User avatar
Silke
Stone Cold Crazy
 
Posts: 2239
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:13 am
Location: X-Winterland

Postby pilvikki » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:17 pm

Is there anything like the good life on earth?


of course there is, but the happy people don't make headlines.
User avatar
pilvikki
Holier Than Thou
 
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:42 am

Postby van » Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:03 am

Kia ora Silky

A good life for me is doing what I want to do


Immediately to quantify "good" with your perception of it
There are many in the world who deem that their way is "good"
Did not the german people by and large deem Hitler to be "good"?
Did he not do what he wanted to do?
A dangerous philosophy if ever there was one!

People would have less divorces if it wasn't so publickly aproved of


I you accept this, I can only surmise that your perception is that a "bad" marriage is better than divorce
What is the point of commitment to a life of misery?

By drugs, do you mean illeagal drugs or medecines? I don't like either much, but to be truthfull, ileagal drug use is a greater problem in poorer countries.


Excuse me?
"Illegal" drugs grow wild in poorer countries and by and large its inhabitants use them sparingly
They tend to make money exporting them to the rich countries where unhappy people blow themselves away with them!

people gets adicted and so crime blosoms. Is that the good life?


Have you been to a developed country lately that does not have a crimewave related to drugs?

I am sorry, but your reasoning is illogical

Arohanui
Shalom
Bill
van
Hero Of The Day
 
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:42 pm
Location: nz

PreviousNext

Return to [Archive] Classic Topics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron